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A Lady Version of the Gordon-Watney De Dietrich? (update: or Benz, Mercedes, Turcat Méry? )
See that happy smile, mrs. Hawke barily can overlook the bonnet of her chaindrive tourer. A few sizes smaller than the 135 HP De Dietrich Gordon Watney as presented earlier this week but still a strong look-a-like. Another project Gordon Watney rebody maybe? We see nearly the same tasty wheeldisc treatment and many other parallels. Wings have a flimsy look, the headlights somewhat small and the cap protruding from the radiator toptank looks like a later addition. The photo was earlier shown in The Automobile, but it never came to a real identification. Maybe the Gordon Watney has stirred up enough old dust to finally identify this car as well? The car was owned by Ernest Hawke - who was a succesful flour miller from Leicestershire. He had a weak spot for chaindrive cars as you will find out with our Monday mystery...
editor: thank gents you for all the wise comments you sent. However what's not clear to us on which make of car you ended. With several remakrs we get the impression that you folks think this is the same car as last Wednesday which it obviously is not...)
(family album Jon Dudley)
Gepubliceerd:
donderdag maart 5th, 2015
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Reacties
Onbekend
18 Maart 2015, 12:45
I can only echo Joris' thanks. I'm not sure we've solved the identity completely for either this car or the van, but I like the idea that they may have Benz associations. I'd love to know the subsequent history of both cars. Many thanks.
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Onbekend
12 Maart 2015, 22:15
After studying both photos, I believe that they are the same car
The version with the flimsy mudguards has been modified to make it look more up-to-date. A hood or cowl has been added to the radiator shell, the bonnet is identical with leather strap, the scuttle has been lengthened to closer to the steering wheel, the chain covers are identical and the rear of the body has been revised.
Otherwise there are a number of points that indicate that it is the same car?
Keith Humphreys
New Zealand
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The version with the flimsy mudguards has been modified to make it look more up-to-date. A hood or cowl has been added to the radiator shell, the bonnet is identical with leather strap, the scuttle has been lengthened to closer to the steering wheel, the chain covers are identical and the rear of the body has been revised.
Otherwise there are a number of points that indicate that it is the same car?
Keith Humphreys
New Zealand
Onbekend
07 Maart 2015, 17:21
It could be that Turcat-Méry stopped racing after the ACF forbid the participation of both Turcat-Méry and De Dietrich in the Gordon Bennett eleimination trials of 1905 for being essentially identical cars. Maybe it was agreed that racing would be performed by L.-D from then on. The date of separation between T.-M. and L.-D. is unclear. Some sources mention 1911 or 1912, but on a 1913 ad the licence is still mentioned. Not in the 1913 L.-D. catalogue however, but Turcat-Méry is named there as their Marseille agent. So it is my guess that their relation indeed continued at least until WW1, as mentioned by Phil.
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Onbekend
07 Maart 2015, 02:47
I stand corrected on the use of the Lorraine addition to de Dietrich. I was relying on memory of what M. Turcat said in personal communications with a Turcat-Mery owner in Australia around 1955-56, so I plead a little forgetfulness after all this time, but I am clear that he said he was still supervising production at de Dietrich up to the beginning of WW1. Turcat did refer to racing de Dietrich and T-M well beyond 1904 but I confess he did not name the events.
I would not claim that either car was ever badged as a Turcat-Mery. What I find interesting is that many of the de Dietrich cars were, apart from the badge (and understandably the body from dash-board back), indistinguishable from the T-M (according to M. Turcat). I wish I had one from this period so I could tell! Mine is somewhat later. Phil Fletcher
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I would not claim that either car was ever badged as a Turcat-Mery. What I find interesting is that many of the de Dietrich cars were, apart from the badge (and understandably the body from dash-board back), indistinguishable from the T-M (according to M. Turcat). I wish I had one from this period so I could tell! Mine is somewhat later. Phil Fletcher
Onbekend
07 Maart 2015, 00:59
As far as I know Turcat-Méry raced for the last time in a major race in the 1904 Gordon Bennett race. The Moscow-St. Petersburg races were in 1907 (when Duray won on a Lorraine-Dietrich) and in 1908 (that year from St. Petersburg to Moscow). The name change from De Dietrich to Lorraine-Dietrich was during 1906. In the 1907 catalogue the firm calls itself "Société Lorraine des Anciens Établissements De Dietrich & Cie.", still licence Turcat-Méry and the cars are called Lorraine-Dietrich. Although Turcat-Méry normally produced large cars indees, there are enough examples of comparable size Lorraine-Dietrich's at the time. In 1909 they advertise with a car which is about the same size and appearance as the Gordon Watney L.-D. (and even has a comparable chain cover!).
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Onbekend
06 Maart 2015, 14:56
Isnt this "prow" (or beak, if you like),possibly a soldered-on sheet brass "update" to a standard shouldered Mercedes radiator? I think it can be said that, without this addition, the standard Merc. radiator would look a bit unsporting & old fashioned on this modernised chassis, which I suspect is a Mercedes. There was,in England,I would say, a greater glamour surrounding the Mercedes than other competitors,which caused this make to be a popular choice for modernisation.
editor: I sort of agree with the above. In a way it doesn't look like the real thing ...
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editor: I sort of agree with the above. In a way it doesn't look like the real thing ...
Onbekend
06 Maart 2015, 13:05
I have to support John Hughes on this one. It does look much more like the Benz radiator.
Regarding the previous car (at Cambridge) I have to support Anders Svenfelt (#3) and Ariejan Bos (#6) in claiming it as the St Petersberg-Moscow de Dietrich.
But we should not forget that during this period de Dietrichs were Turcat Mery designs made under licence and M. Turcat supervised their building (whilst M. Mery looked after the Turcat-Mery factory in Marseilles. In racing in this period in France Turcat doubled his chances of success by entering teams of both de Dietrich and Turcat-Mery. The de Dietrichs generally had the smaller motors and he kept the larger ones under his own name. So one other option for our mystery cars (if he had put the Blitzen Benz beak on the radiator) was for the smaller one to be de Dietrich and the larger one a Turcat Mery. The radiator on the Cambridge car is very like the de Dietrich/Turcat Mery radiator - but I am still inclined to agree with John Hughes on a Benz origin for the other car.
Another thing - I think you will find that "Lorraine" didn't get added to "de Dietrich" until well after M. Turcat returned to Marseilles to manage the transition into ammunition production at the beginning of WW1. Phil Fletcher (Australia)
Lees verder
Regarding the previous car (at Cambridge) I have to support Anders Svenfelt (#3) and Ariejan Bos (#6) in claiming it as the St Petersberg-Moscow de Dietrich.
But we should not forget that during this period de Dietrichs were Turcat Mery designs made under licence and M. Turcat supervised their building (whilst M. Mery looked after the Turcat-Mery factory in Marseilles. In racing in this period in France Turcat doubled his chances of success by entering teams of both de Dietrich and Turcat-Mery. The de Dietrichs generally had the smaller motors and he kept the larger ones under his own name. So one other option for our mystery cars (if he had put the Blitzen Benz beak on the radiator) was for the smaller one to be de Dietrich and the larger one a Turcat Mery. The radiator on the Cambridge car is very like the de Dietrich/Turcat Mery radiator - but I am still inclined to agree with John Hughes on a Benz origin for the other car.
Another thing - I think you will find that "Lorraine" didn't get added to "de Dietrich" until well after M. Turcat returned to Marseilles to manage the transition into ammunition production at the beginning of WW1. Phil Fletcher (Australia)
Onbekend
06 Maart 2015, 10:19
shape of radiator is the same as on Mercedes Benz by Watney about which I commented at the Dietrich Gordon Watney:
see comment 5.
editor: this car...? http://thumbs3.picclick.com/d/w1600/pict/370853339662_/1908-Mercedes-Gordon-Watney-Touring-Special-Postcard.jpg
Lees verder
see comment 5.
editor: this car...? http://thumbs3.picclick.com/d/w1600/pict/370853339662_/1908-Mercedes-Gordon-Watney-Touring-Special-Postcard.jpg
Onbekend
06 Maart 2015, 09:42
I think that it is a very large h.p. BENZ. (Possibly a "prince Henry", or a "Blitzen") This style of "beak-shaped" radiator was used on the large Benz cars c,1912 - 1914.
John Hughes, Australia
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John Hughes, Australia