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A low chassis non-Lancia Mystery? (update: Austro Daimler ADR8 with Neuss body?)
Sebastien Simon: "I would like to propose the appended photo as a mystery car and coachbuilder. Personally, I have an idea what it could be, after having done a bit of research, but on the Lancia Motor Club website I was pretty alone with my views. To me it is not a Lancia... Here is the initial post, by Neil Cundy who was contacted by a Jonathan Borchard who's Grandmother was fortunate enough to have this as a wedding car:
I am a member of the Singer Owners Club and own several pre-war Singers. When I was showing one of my cars at the NEC show a couple of years ago I was speaking to someone on the Lancia stand as I have the attached photo of my Grandmother and it was taken at her wedding in Berlin around 1930. I have always been told it was a Lancia but as I knowing nothing about Lancias of this age I have always wondered what it was. Do you recognise it and could you possibly let me have some information on the car?
Jonathan also believes they bought it back to London in 1933, so it was at least for a time, resident in the UK. That car is pretty exceptional, and the bodybuilder is also interesting, in my opinion. And finally the couple is also nice..."
Gepubliceerd:
donderdag april 24th, 2014
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Reacties
Onbekend
29 April 2014, 12:55
Paolo
if the wheelbase is 2.92 mtrs then the gentleman pictured is about 1.45 mtrs tall !!
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if the wheelbase is 2.92 mtrs then the gentleman pictured is about 1.45 mtrs tall !!
Onbekend
29 April 2014, 09:40
This car has a 2.92 mt wheelbase.
The Lambda has a 3.1 mt or a 3.42 mt wheelbase. The Dilambda has a 3.29 mt or a 3.47 mt wheelbase.
My opinion is : this is an Alfa Romeo 1500/1750.
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The Lambda has a 3.1 mt or a 3.42 mt wheelbase. The Dilambda has a 3.29 mt or a 3.47 mt wheelbase.
My opinion is : this is an Alfa Romeo 1500/1750.
Onbekend
29 April 2014, 08:37
Gentlemen,
Just under the point where the radiator goes from diagonal to vertical there is something on the picture that goes to the wheel centre.
Now if this is a tube running from the top of the radiator to the top of the front suspension it is definitely a Lancia Lambda.
This tube is the reason why Lambda headlights are always so high up, they are fitted on top of these tubes.
But just as well this can be a reflection on a chrome plated radiator shell.
It is certainly not a Dilambda as those had a much taller radiator (unless someone lowered it of course).
About the bonnet length, the Lambda has a short four cylinder engine but also has the gearbox fitted under the bonnet that is therefore quite long.
Originaly the Lambda was equiped with an undertray that went al the way back to the brake and clutch assembly. So if this picture is of a Lambda it is correct that you can not see the sump or that it appears to have a gigantic engine.
Finaly the wheels have very flat rims, meaning the section where the spokes are fitted, and look unlike well-base rims but more like the eccentric Michelin rims that Lancia used.
It is unlike any Lambda I have ever seen but I cannot rule out it is. If someone could check out the tube bit on the original picture it would probably settle this.
Regards to all, Kees Boosman
Lees verder
Just under the point where the radiator goes from diagonal to vertical there is something on the picture that goes to the wheel centre.
Now if this is a tube running from the top of the radiator to the top of the front suspension it is definitely a Lancia Lambda.
This tube is the reason why Lambda headlights are always so high up, they are fitted on top of these tubes.
But just as well this can be a reflection on a chrome plated radiator shell.
It is certainly not a Dilambda as those had a much taller radiator (unless someone lowered it of course).
About the bonnet length, the Lambda has a short four cylinder engine but also has the gearbox fitted under the bonnet that is therefore quite long.
Originaly the Lambda was equiped with an undertray that went al the way back to the brake and clutch assembly. So if this picture is of a Lambda it is correct that you can not see the sump or that it appears to have a gigantic engine.
Finaly the wheels have very flat rims, meaning the section where the spokes are fitted, and look unlike well-base rims but more like the eccentric Michelin rims that Lancia used.
It is unlike any Lambda I have ever seen but I cannot rule out it is. If someone could check out the tube bit on the original picture it would probably settle this.
Regards to all, Kees Boosman
Onbekend
29 April 2014, 02:55
In relation to the Austro Daimler Neuss suggestion I have searched for all pics of these and they consistently show headlights ahead of the radiator and front mudguards going down to the dumb irons which would block out the view through the front wheel as in the Pic, which also does not show a front leaf spring.
The back of the mystery car also does not curve back but appears to go straight down, could this car have had a separate trunk that has been removed at the time of the photo? the running boards are missing the back guards definitely appear to be meant to join to a running board, as for the length of the bonnet the 30's say bonnets that bore no relation to what was under them.
A study of Farina Cabriolets on Lancias dating from Lambdas through Dilambda, Artena, Astura and Augusta show many examples consistent with the mystery photo
http://www.autoedizione.com/unique-lancia-astura-pininfarina-up-for-auction-in-silverstone/
Lees verder
The back of the mystery car also does not curve back but appears to go straight down, could this car have had a separate trunk that has been removed at the time of the photo? the running boards are missing the back guards definitely appear to be meant to join to a running board, as for the length of the bonnet the 30's say bonnets that bore no relation to what was under them.
A study of Farina Cabriolets on Lancias dating from Lambdas through Dilambda, Artena, Astura and Augusta show many examples consistent with the mystery photo
http://www.autoedizione.com/unique-lancia-astura-pininfarina-up-for-auction-in-silverstone/
Onbekend
29 April 2014, 02:52
Thank you Sebastien!
Yes, the VERY low build, the very short body of central european design, the horisontal bonnet louvres and the plated wheel flanges all speak for Austro-Daimler. In some way do also the wheel spinners, the flag post and the alike A-D radiator mascot. The chassis type must be ADR, and it's sportiness suggest it's an ADR 6, perhaps even a Bergemeister?
Lees verder
Yes, the VERY low build, the very short body of central european design, the horisontal bonnet louvres and the plated wheel flanges all speak for Austro-Daimler. In some way do also the wheel spinners, the flag post and the alike A-D radiator mascot. The chassis type must be ADR, and it's sportiness suggest it's an ADR 6, perhaps even a Bergemeister?
Onbekend
29 April 2014, 00:09
I still think it is a Lambda, the Austro- Daimler has lower headlights than the Mystery car while the arrangement on the Lambda is identical. The engine undertray looks Lambda and some Special bodied Lambdas did have longer bonnets. Many of the details on the Nuess bodied Austro-Daimler look similar but are significantly different.
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Onbekend
28 April 2014, 06:20
Some ideas, and a proposal:
The body could be by Jos. Neuss, who did similar bodies on Bugattis – see also post #2
The wheelbase could be around 3.5 m, using the size of the girl as a yardstick
The bonnet is too long and low for the high and short Lancia Lambda engine : however it could fit over a 6 cylinder engine of 2 to 3 liters.
The rear end is too low for a rigid rear axle, so maybe an IRS chassis.
The car that comes to mind is the Austro-Daimler ADR, see :
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Daimler_ADR
Finally, the designer Joseph Beeskow, who worked first for Jos. Neuss, then for Erdmann&Rossi, did a lone Austro-Daimler ADR cabriolet, see :
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Beeskow.
So I think that the first poster, Sven Ljungström, was correct, and that the picture is of an Austro-Daimler ADR, on the standard 3.5 m chassis, with one-off body by Jos. Neuss of Berlin-Halensee.
Lees verder
The body could be by Jos. Neuss, who did similar bodies on Bugattis – see also post #2
The wheelbase could be around 3.5 m, using the size of the girl as a yardstick
The bonnet is too long and low for the high and short Lancia Lambda engine : however it could fit over a 6 cylinder engine of 2 to 3 liters.
The rear end is too low for a rigid rear axle, so maybe an IRS chassis.
The car that comes to mind is the Austro-Daimler ADR, see :
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Daimler_ADR
Finally, the designer Joseph Beeskow, who worked first for Jos. Neuss, then for Erdmann&Rossi, did a lone Austro-Daimler ADR cabriolet, see :
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Beeskow.
So I think that the first poster, Sven Ljungström, was correct, and that the picture is of an Austro-Daimler ADR, on the standard 3.5 m chassis, with one-off body by Jos. Neuss of Berlin-Halensee.
Onbekend
27 April 2014, 14:01
a very similar looking car with a slightly lower suicide door and only two hinges
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&docid=nbV0TH0EkWkElM&tbnid=xqx9ezRz_Vhz_M:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgomotors.net%2FLancia%2FLancia-Lambda-Torpedo%2Fphotos.html&ei=LA1dU_efKMb0lAXq94HQCQ&bvm=bv.65397613,d.dGI&psig=AFQjCNGK3oP291tU2Ejww9iCT_ss2OyPGQ&ust=1398693547429753
Lees verder
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&docid=nbV0TH0EkWkElM&tbnid=xqx9ezRz_Vhz_M:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgomotors.net%2FLancia%2FLancia-Lambda-Torpedo%2Fphotos.html&ei=LA1dU_efKMb0lAXq94HQCQ&bvm=bv.65397613,d.dGI&psig=AFQjCNGK3oP291tU2Ejww9iCT_ss2OyPGQ&ust=1398693547429753
Onbekend
27 April 2014, 11:43
The french Tracta cars used front wheel drive and had sliding pillar suspension. Could it be such a rarity? Less than 150 cars were made between 1926 and 1934.
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Onbekend
26 April 2014, 22:58
Wow. All I'm going to say is this. To me, it doesn't even matter the make or coachbuilder, what a "sexy" sporty car. I can only hope it still survives out there someplace. I shall take a shot at Hispano Suiza!
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Onbekend
26 April 2014, 22:36
The Dilambda with farina body supplied by Hubertus http://www.lanciaservice.nl/english/content/modellen/dilambda.htm makes a strong case for him being the coachbuilder, suicide doors with 3 hinges etc the difference being the bigger wheel hubs the wedding pic has hubs the same size as a lambda plus the front wheels are exactly where they would be on a car with lambda trapezoid front suspension
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Onbekend
26 April 2014, 08:25
The wheels are in line with AustroDaimler. Many were sold with semi standard Austrian Oeffag bodywork which allowed for indiviual touches by the first owner. The horizontal striping on the bonnetside also ties in with otther productions by them.
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Onbekend
26 April 2014, 08:20
Looking through the front wheel between the brake drum and the rim I see what I believe is the front bumper at two o'clock, but no dumb iron. This would indicate a sliding pillar front suspension. Therefor a Lancia. Probably a Dilambda, which had a conventional chassis
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Onbekend
26 April 2014, 06:57
This car ,is not so big ,as MAYBACH zeppelin ,for example ,the radiator is not very apparent ,but general arrangement of the car's front , is very similar to ALFA ROMEO , thin an light...Of course ,Ã very elegant car !
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Onbekend
25 April 2014, 22:59
A few things are still saying Lancia Lambda to me...probably 8th or 9th series platform chassis, with special coachwork.
The ['colonial'] wheels and 'knock-ons'.
The big aluminium-finned brake drums.
The high-mounted headlights.
The long wheel base.
Lees verder
The ['colonial'] wheels and 'knock-ons'.
The big aluminium-finned brake drums.
The high-mounted headlights.
The long wheel base.
Onbekend
25 April 2014, 15:21
Maybe it is a Dilambda?
The one shown here looks very similar. But I can´t find a bigger picture:
http://www.lanciaservice.nl/english/content/modellen/dilambda.htm
Lees verder
The one shown here looks very similar. But I can´t find a bigger picture:
http://www.lanciaservice.nl/english/content/modellen/dilambda.htm
Onbekend
25 April 2014, 10:12
The car looks very much like an 8th series Lambda, but is the bonnet too long for the standard platform chassis?, and are the front brake drums smaller than the rear?. I would take a punt that it is a Lambda
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Onbekend
25 April 2014, 07:30
My uneducated guess: could it be a Maybach Zeppelin? The radiator mascot reminds me of it. Or is this chassis too low for ibeing a Zeppelin?
The body shows some similarities with the Weinberger Bugatti Royale. Could also be Erdman & Rossi?
Lees verder
The body shows some similarities with the Weinberger Bugatti Royale. Could also be Erdman & Rossi?
Onbekend
25 April 2014, 07:30
On first impression I would say Austro-Daimler with Weinberger coachwork.
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Onbekend
25 April 2014, 06:46
My first thought without reading the text was "Stoewer Gigant/Repräsentant" with a body, similar to the "Dr.Fuchs-Bugatti Royale". But I dont´t know any Stoewer with Suicide-Doors...
A very nice picture!
Best regards,
Hubertus
Lees verder
A very nice picture!
Best regards,
Hubertus
Onbekend
25 April 2014, 04:41
I think this car is absolutely stunning. I cannot comment on the Marque. But if it exists, it will Pebble Beach for style.
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Onbekend
25 April 2014, 01:46
Looks like a Lancia Lambda to me. The 8th Series was available in 'chassis ' form, enabling special coachwork to be added.
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Onbekend
25 April 2014, 01:42
Could it be bodied by Jos. Neuss? The style is very similar to Austro Daimler and this Bugatti T49 http://www.bugattirevue.com/revue20/neuss.htm). But the make of the car is tough, Lancia could be possible or maybe Alfa Romeo? This link, http://www.coachbuild.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=30446, shows a Erdmann & Rossi (who acquired Jos Neuss in 1933) bodied Corto (Short chassis) Alfa the has similar design cues to the two Neuss bodied cars. Could this be an earlier Neuss bodied Lungo (long chassis) Alfa Romeo?
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