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real or replica and anything in between


This is no April joke(!) like a week ago: Dutch customs and tax authorities have put charges against a company that has been importing costly cars for a number of years with - among others - also various cars that you would consider as full replicas.  We understand that these cars were imported while paying import duties for antique cars, collector items if you want.  In various cases they were also being registered for road use as if they were old cars. The Dutch customs say they have proof these are new cars and have laid a 700,000 Euro claim on the company for non paid taxes on new cars. So far just a boring tax issue.
The next step however is - if these vehicles are seen as new cars - what will happen with their recent road registration? New cars need a type approval, crash testing, airbags, etc. So will these cars end as museum toys that at the best can be used at racing events?

 In the end  it is the chassis, its number, its registration and documented history what makes a car an old car. When you buy an old car you have to research what it is, determine what it is, decide what it, and what you can do with it.  If you don't know about all these things, then be sure to  seek independent professional advise before you buy. Keep in mind that any old car can have a new(er) engine, a new gearbox, a new body, new front and/or rear axle and sometimes also a new chassis. All this without loosing its paper identity. 

You will understand we are entering a swamp with no end here.  Especially when you take into account that there are many lesser known cars that receive a new chassis during restoration.
It is for instance very well possible to build a new Model T from new parts available from the shelf. Would that be an old Model T or new Model T?
Also you may know the famous old story of the man who put down a piece of tin with a number stamped in it on the desk of a famous restorer and was asking: "This is what remains of my Ferrari Testa Rossa, can you restore it for me?"  Was the 'restored/recreated end result an old or a new car? 
And what is the identity of a Special made out of a saloon that received a new chassis?  
Is the widely offered Bentley Le Mans recreation a 1928 car or a 1948 Rolls-Royce as that was the year of the original basis.
Is that Jaguar D-type replica registered as 1963 because that is the year of the engine, front and back axle? Or 2011 as that was the year it was created from old parts plus new chassis?  

Last example: in this country officials approve of old 2CV's being upgraded with a new chassis for safety. And allow those cars to keep their old identity. 

Bottomline, you're safe with a truly original car. When your car is just a tiny bit or a bit more besides being an original, you may feel a lot safer when you don't live in Holland. But mind you the issue is spreading and this is not the only country in the world where these issues have the attention of governmental organisations. History and provenance are becoming more important every day.

Finally: we love to hear your opinion in this. But we will not allow personal attacks, shouting or anything close to that. This is about the future of the hobby and we like to hear clear and preferably wise opinions, ideas and suggestions.

Gepubliceerd:
maandag april 8th, 2013
Onbekend
11 April 2013, 11:15
This kettle was on the fire since long already, but finally it boiled and whistled now! The topic here is not "replicas in general", but those imported from outside the EU. For applying road registration for an imported car (purchase from another EU country is no import!) one has to present the custom clearing document, this is standard procedure in order to prove that duties and taxes had been paid. If replicas are imported correctly as new cars - which in fact they are - the road registration will be refused because these cars do not comply with the actual safety and environmental legislation for automobiles. So to have an imported replica road registered it MUST be imported as antique respectively classic car, meaning as an original. But exactly that is the problem, new cars are subject to 10 % import duty plus the valid VAT in the country of import (e.g. 21 % in NL, 19 % in D). But old cars (the definition is complicated and differs by country) are classified as collector items or artwork, they are imported with zero import duty and reduced VAT (e.g. 6 %). Importing a replica as original period built car is simply tax fraud, because abt. 25 % - or when talking about a "Pampa Bugatti" abt. € 40.000 - are evaded from the fiscal authorities.

This problem is well known since years, but it has always been downplayed. Some years ago a large German classic car magazine describes such behaviour as "Schummelei" (trickery), and "man besorgt sich eine alte Original-Chassisnummer" (obtaining an old original chassis no.). Trivializing something which in fact is clearly fraud! Another magazine wrote “streng genommen handelt es sich um ein Neufahrzeug” (strictly speaking such car will be a new vehicle", and "Zulassungsversuche dürften daher meist chancenlos bleiben” (registration attempts therefore will be mostly unsuccessful). "Strictly speaking" and "mostly"...?

The legal situation is absolutely clear, a replica is a new vehicle, and as such it is not permissable for road registration as it does not comply with the technical legislation. The reversal consequently is that all road registered replicas have achieved such registration fraudulently. And in case of imported cars even by committing tax fraud.

However, who is blamable for the tax fraud? Juridically a difficult question, but in first instance the party who officially performed the import procedure. But if this party can claim that the exporter sold them an original restored car...? Complicated stuff for lawyers and attorneys. But one thing is clear without any doubt - anybody who buys a "Pampa Bugatti" knows quite well that for such money he NEVER can have an original!

It can be expected that from now on it will be much more difficult to import South American replicas, but there are still ways and channels. But it can be also expected that such market gap soon will be filled with supplies from some eastern EU member states, where reportedly the "Bugatti production" is already in full swing.
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Onbekend
10 April 2013, 13:48
Yesterday I went to the auto parts store and paid with a $50 dollar bill the clerk looked it over better than a Pebble Beach judge. In the past fake bills were the relm of professionals. Now with laser printers anyone with a computer and printer can make "NEW" money. 3 D printing will also put our hobby to the test. We are just getting started folks. If people are not honest they cause all to be a suspect.
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Onbekend
09 April 2013, 22:55
This is obviously a tricky subject. I for one do not have such a closed view of what is a classic and what is not.

It is a well-known fact that in using a classic, we are in effect consuming the object of our passion. And unless you've got an original car secreted away and never enjoyed, it will ultimately come to suffer wear and lessen its originality.

You can in effect have a car with very little of what constituted it originally. Remember the court case around Bentley 'Old Number 1'? The car had through several accidents typical of a long-serving competition car, been largely rebuilt over the years with several replacement parts, including at one point the chassis. Is it not original? Is it not the car that had that gone through all that? The court decided it was, through the idea of continued history and maintenance.

About "modern" cars, I think we're getting chased rather too eagerly by authorities wanting income tax from what is viewed as a rich man's hobby. Yes, if you have the means to purchase a new Bugatti or Alfa, good on you. But taxes are indeed due, if so, when purchasing an object from abroad and importing it, as it is with anything else.

But now to the other side: is it a classic? I think so. If something respects the original design, it should be viewed as being indeed the same. You can have a new one made, and preserve the original ones as such. Obviously, it should not be intended to assume an original identity, but be plainly admitted as a new build, but respected as something conforming to an original design.

How can we force a Pur Sang to uphold the same standards as a new car? It will never be able to act like one. It should be entitled to be viewed as a re-enaction of a 30's car, and given the same treatment, because apart from the history and the patina, it is exactly that.

If you want worse than that, see my own coutry, for example: I imported an original 1967 car from Italy, and my government decided that my car is new to the country when it entered national territory, so it is taxed as a 2008 car. Never mind that it was built 46 years ago, and had already served a lifetime's worth of taxes in the EU. Fabulous...
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Onbekend
09 April 2013, 21:51
And we all know its how well you are connected as to if you get to pass it off as the real thing..... I can think of a high powered GN special thats a little like triggers broom....Totally original only had two new heads and 3 new handles!

My take is if its done from original parts and 'in the spirit' of hoe specials were built back in the day then its ok!

Just my take on it all
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Graeme Simpson
09 April 2013, 21:35
[quote name="Siegfried Otto Hepp"] I believe that Siegfried Otto Hepp offers the most logical possibility for the basis of an international standard. Of course there remain many difficulties, not least to get international agreement. Not all makers serialised all the 5 major components, so reliance must be placed on expert knowledge, whether from Clubs, reference books or accredited scrutineers. Broadly, I agree with the Dutch taxman: when is an old car not an old car? When it's a repica!
Graeme Simpson
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Onbekend
09 April 2013, 21:30
Back in the 1950's and 60's many of our old pre war cars only barely survived, and the few enthusiasts around often had little money to spend. There were, though, similar old cars in junk yards. My 1933 Talbot received a replacement engine and much of its body interior cames from another example of the same model. Today she is a handsome old car that carries the legacy of several of her peers- and for me that is just fine, since very little is non- contemporary or non - authentic for the model. I dislike modern recreations, but if that's the only way to get an essentially original chassis on the road maybe we have to be prepared to compromise. However I can never understand how a modern roadster body can double the value of a lovely original saloon, but we've already had that debate here. The fault lies with the people who are prepared to waste their money on such fakes- in my view.
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Onbekend
09 April 2013, 20:32
If we read to the FIVA international techical code, where FIVA defines a HISTORIC VEHICLE as mechanically propelled road vehicle which is at list 30 years old, which is preserved and mantained in a historically correct
condition etc. Replica cars just build can't comply these requirements.
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Onbekend
09 April 2013, 17:24
When my grandfather died, his right leg was artificial and the left one had a new hip and a synthetic knee joint. He had two intra-ocular lens replacements, a pace-maker, false teeth and a hearing aid implant. Twenty years earlier he had had a kidney transplant and his prostate removed, and a great many before that, he had his appendix and tonsils removed. There wasn't much of the original man left by the age of 90 - but he was proud of that fact and made it very well known!
The problem with replica chassis, new bodies, bitsa's made up from several cars and blatant copies and forgeries is when they're passed off as something they either never were or never shall be - i.e., the real thing.
There have been, and still are a number of very valuable cars on the market which are described as totally restored when in fact they should be described as totally re-created. Remove everything which was manufactured within the last 20 years and do you still have a vintage car?
It is a problem which also exists in the world of Automobilia. How many reproduction mascots or modern photographs are sold each year at Beaulieu as “Originals”?
As long as there is considerable sums of money to be made, recreations, fakes and forgeries will exist. It’s a simple case of caveat emptor!
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Onbekend
09 April 2013, 15:48
the same paradox from time immemorial "The ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned [from Crete] had thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old planks as they decayed, putting in new and stronger timber in their place, insomuch that this ship became a standing example among the philosophers, for the logical question of things that grow; one side holding that the ship remained the same, and the other contending that it was not the same."
—Plutarch,
if the greeks counldnt figure it out how will a bunch of car freaks
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Onbekend
09 April 2013, 15:21
As I see it ,it's the difference between restoration and re-creation. While you may have to re-create parts to effectively restore an old car, you have to start with an original, Anything less remains a replica,however well executed. It would appear that the company concerned were bucking the system; I have little sympathy for them as their actions bring our hobby into disrepute.
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Onbekend
09 April 2013, 14:30
The discussion about the definition of a classic car will continue as long as there are recreations / remakes / replicas / rebodied / rebuilds / specials or whatever which description is used.
The important issue in this matter will be the interpretation of the taxauthorities of what makes a classic car a classic car; a 'Pur Sang' Bugatti, however made from melted old iron and aluminium,is without doubt a new car, but what about a car with an original frame with a new body or a original body with a new frame ?
It will be very interesting to see how this will end. It will also be interesting to know what the point of view from the FIVA is in this matter; as far as I'm aware they have not published their position in this discussion. One thing is for sure: if you have a original car there is nothing to worry about.
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Onbekend
09 April 2013, 14:08
The Italians have a good system for old car registration. As I undertsand it, the government requires documentation from a private historic car club that an old car is proper and real. Once the owner gets this done the government accepts the car and gives it historic registration with all the benefits. Other cars are just cars.
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Onbekend
09 April 2013, 13:50
Es ist wie im richtigen Leben, erst die Geschäftemacher verderben uns den Spaß. Da wo Geld zu machen ist wird auch betrogen und wo Betrüger am Werk sind gibt es auch Unwissende die sich betrügen lassen. Schlimm genug dass erst Behörden auf die Spur kommen müssen und in der Folge uns, den Oldtimerbesitzern das Leben schwer machen.
Wir haben doch alle ein sehr gutes Gefühl dafür was wirklich erhaltenswert und alt ist und was nachgebaut wurde.
Nach meiner Auffassung ist ein rollendes Fahrwerk das Minimum für ein originales Fahrzeug und je mehr originale Teile erhalten sind, desto höher sollte die Bewertung ausfallen.
Replicas und Nachbauten sind durchaus legitim, aber sie stellen eine besondere Spezies unter den Liebhaberfahrzeugen dar.
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Onbekend
09 April 2013, 11:42
The chassis, as it left from the factory is the car. Continuous history helps too. The simple solution is to exclude Bugatti's (without continuous, documented history), how can we have more of these cars on the road now than were ever produced? Vintage specials should be excluded too, as they have not done anything for the preservation of vintage cars. Preserved original cars are going to be the next thing in the vintage car world as it is a lot harder to fake these cars, rather than a completely restored vehicle. How would you know what is original on a restored car?
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Onbekend
09 April 2013, 11:25
I am in the process of recreating a Bugatti Royale street rod althou not exact very close.the idea being to creat a car that the masses will have the oppertunity to see and enjoy what a car of this statue would have been like. not to produce a fake or try and pass off as an original. the laws in my state in the USA allow me to register as a replica motor vehicle, with proper documentation of the parts used.
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Onbekend
09 April 2013, 10:32
Have always held the chassis is The car, period. If you break a car and build a special on the original chassis, you have the original car with a new body. If someone takes the original body and fits it to a different (new or old) chassis, it is Not the original car, just its original body. If a chassis becomes unusable, then hold a proper wake and use the bits to help someone else resurrect a car, or build a tribute car on a new chassis.
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Onbekend
09 April 2013, 08:34
My view: if the dealer cooperated getting old registrations for Pur Sang "Bugattis" he should be in jail. To place new replica bodies on old chassis is nothing wrong with. It is for some time practive with the authorities to research suspect cases and raise charges, which is correct I think.
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Onbekend
09 April 2013, 08:03
Famous Bentley story: racing Bentley crashed in the 20ies. Car disapeared. Some 50 years later the rebuild car is back.Someone had found the chassis, restored and sold the car to a Japanese collector for real money. A few years later suddenly a second exemple of the same car was offered and sold. That one was "restored" by someone having the paperwork of the crashed car. Now who had the real car?
I know of Suffolk Jaguars (the plastic copy of an SS) that are registred here in France as "Jaguar SS 1" just because the authorities don't know what they are talking about. Newly made, so fake, Bugattii's, MG Q types, Jaguars, Porches etc, should be banned from the classic scene and just be seen as the copy they are. Nothing wrong with driving a plastic copy of something, but do not pretend to drive or sell the real thing. The problem is that different countries have different laws concerning the acceptation of vintage, classic and new cars.
My GB Aston Martin with an English COC is not accepted in France, because they can not read the COC and they give every French COC a new number. So you have to apply for a French COC. When Authorities finally would agree on the same set of rules, the problem would be sold. But as long as we accept all the red tape people and their way of working, there is no hope that we can solve this issue.
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Onbekend
09 April 2013, 07:47
If this is about brandnew 2013 Mercedes G-wagons and Range Rovers to be put on old pre-1980 chassis just to avoid to pay roadtax I think it is fair to let that compagny pay € 700K because these idiots destroy the taxsystem for real classic car drivers. So I feel no pitty for them whatsoever...!
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Onbekend
09 April 2013, 07:27
well, i think the easy way to say what is a original is the following: only the chassis with original chassisnumber and documented ! is an oldtimer. for newer cars without chassis it is the body with chassis number, as you can buy since the early days a replacement by the factory's. It is even possible to buy today a new Porsche body by the factory, but than you must give your old original chassisnumber to the factory, and than you become it as a original factory replacement. what was a car, is a car, all others are replicas. thank you, and sorry about my english!! And don't forget, it is not good to see a oldtimerrace with replicas, here in switzerland it was this year the first time, that a owner with a pursang "BUGATTI" was stopped by the officials and can't not started.
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Onbekend
09 April 2013, 06:56
I think the primary problem is in the hunger of socialistic states tax authorities. Reduce and simplify tax / registration system on cars and this particular problem will disappear..... I personally do not like replicas but I think why not people let to build, drive, buy and sell anything they want?
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Onbekend
09 April 2013, 06:09
As a FIVA Scruteneer,I see this problem since some years.
The main problem is that the price of some cars are so high that it is possible to make a replika for 20 till 30 % of the price of the orginal Car.
If you have to licence these, you have
to find an Scruteneer, who do not see that the car is an replica.
At Essen 2012 I saw an Alfa Romeo Monza
it was 95 % correkt but a replika.
As I asked where the Chassisnumber came from, I got the answer it was a free Number!!
Who can check thiese in 10 or 20 Jears?
I remenber years ago in England was the rule that the Car has to have 3 of the 5
importend parts orinal.
Frame, Frontaxle, Backaxle, Engine and
Transmission, so that nobody can make from one Original Car 2 !
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Ralf Pickel
09 April 2013, 05:52
It should actually be easy to solve - cars with continous history are real, no matter what has been replaced. although it should be documented (and declared by the owner). There is a multitude of documentation around to back this up - the story of Bentley Old Number One and the recent Stanley Mann court case are examples.
Newly built up fakes (Pur Sang, Pseudo Cricklewood "Bentleys" with IFS and RR engines, forexample) should never get a period correct identity.
Last week I got an email advertising cars from a German "Prestige" dealer, among them, in their words, an 1926 Bugatti T 37 by Pur Sang, together with "original" 1930 French Carte Grise....
And that is just one example.
A 1963 Jag D-Type ? There should not even be a discussion about this.
If this fakery and wrong description continues we should not be astonished about more and more restrictions regarding the road registration.

Ralf
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Onbekend
09 April 2013, 05:24
You make an interesting point and here is my take for what its worth. I build "old" cars for a hobby. So far an SS100 from Suffolk Jaguar (that was made from a 1976 XJ6) a Bugatti type 37 with some original parts but the major ones being either new or a 1964 MG Midget. A 1954 Aston DB3R which was a real mongrel and an Alfa Romeo Monza 8C, in progress and the best copy yet but again almost completely new. They are registered with USA customs as the date on the log book for the major donor car. Power, shape and suspension geometry are close to original and let me claim them as close reproductions. Luckily in the USA anything more than 10 minutes old is classed as vintage so I get the advantages of that without the true provenance. Its also honest to say just what it is and most folk really don't care. If I wanted to enter a high end show I'd better go purchase a true original too precious to drive daily so where is the fun in that?
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Onbekend
09 April 2013, 04:41
I think the Dutch Authorities are completely correct, but this is probably already the situation elsewhere; eg, the example you give of old RRs being used as the basis of Le Mans Bentley Replicas is already evidenced by the Racing Green Company using Bentley Mk V and VI chassis for theirs in the UK, so at least the make reads correctly, if not the year.
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Onbekend
09 April 2013, 04:40
Vehicle Type Approval requirements :

If you are making cars then you need to apply for type approval, through the VCA.

VCA is an Executive Agency of the United Kingdom Department for Transport and the United Kingdom's national approval authority for new road vehicles, agricultural tractors and off-road vehicles.

As their "About" page says :
"We pride ourselves in providing expert international test and certification services for vehicles and vehicle parts. Our approval certificates are recognised without question throughout the European Community and the wider group of countries belonging to the European Economic Area and the Geneva-based United Nations organisation (ECE)."

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/vehicletype/type-approval-for-ca.asp

However if you are only making one or a few of the type then you “MAY” apply for "Individual Type Approval" which is less onerous

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca//vehicletype/individual-vehicle-approval.asp

If your vehicle already has been registered before, then you can’t use the Statutory IVA Scheme, you'll need to use the Voluntary IVA Scheme.

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/individual-vehicle-approval

There are 2 levels of IVA inspection: basic and normal.
Basic IVA involves a visual inspection and other tests to make sure the vehicle meets the necessary standards. You won’t normally need to provide any documentary evidence.
You can apply if you have a passenger car or light goods vehicle in one of these categories:

left-hand drive vehicles
• personal imports
• amateur built vehicles (kit cars)
• rebuilt vehicles
very low volume production vehicles
ambulances
motor caravans
hearses
armoured passenger vehicles
• a vehicle manufactured using parts of a registered vehicle

• My Highlights

In part 2 of the form (and there are lots of them) you can apply for "Exemption from Vehicle Approval"

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/exemptions-from-vehicle-approval

You don’t need vehicle approval for:

• cars and light goods vehicles over 10 years old (My Highlights)
heavy goods vehicles over 25 years old
tracked vehicles, eg a vehicle that runs on tracks rather than wheels
vehicles designed and constructed for use on construction sites, quarries, ports and airports
vehicles designed and constructed for and used by the armed services, fire and rescue forces, or used in maintaining public order

If your vehicle needs approval, you must send proof of this in when you apply to register it. If you don’t, the DVLA won’t register your vehicle.

Please read the links for more information.

Depending on the status of the importing Dutch cars, your system will be similar, and if the vehicle has been registered previously, then there would appear to be little problem to getting them accepted !

The problem lies in NOT telling them in the first place !

Stuart Penketh
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Onbekend
09 April 2013, 03:03
What is even more interesting is the short selling of papered cars. Recently a prominent author made disparaging comments about a car that I know well. The abuse of the media to pump up the value or dump on the value of other's cars. This may have not been the focus of the writings. But remember that with time many "stories" are just that.
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Onbekend
09 April 2013, 02:30
Difficult to understand the isues and implications without concrete examples. There was a Phantom III Rolls-Royce in a RR pub a short time back, modern engine, automatic transmission, modern suspension and brakes, revised body and I don't recall how many modern parts. Does your authority treat this as a non-authentic, non-antique car? (if so, I am with them!) Where are they drawing the line?
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Onbekend
09 April 2013, 02:25
Now look what you have started with your April fools trick !:-)

Tony.
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