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Some ads make you feel glad. Some ads make you feel sad.

You may have seen the recent Letter to the Editor. You may have missed it. We just wanted to be sure you would read about this issue. The fine Derby Bentley depicted here is offered in the parts section. This specific photo comes with an advert offering a complete coachwork. We perfectly understand the irritation that was the result of these ads. Yet - despite several requests - we did decide to keep these adverts in for various reasons. In our view the ad sections reflect what is on the market, the ads do not reflect our opinion about what is being advertised. We answered similar when ads came up in which replica cars were offered. And when cars were offered of highly questioned quality or provenance. We only will take out adverts when they are clear scams, or when they obviously are in conflict with local or international laws. We don't feel happy about all this, but please try to understand why we have no other choice. If we would take out all adverts which are not liked on various subjective grounds, we would give the false impression that all other ads would benefit from some kind or PreWarCar-PostWarClassic guarantee label. You will understand that we are in no position to give such a guarantee. Not on one single advert. All this aside you are most welcome to post your opinions as long it is not mere shouting.

editorial note; some added remarks unadvertedly were posted at the bottom of 'Letter to the Editor'

Gepubliceerd:
woensdag oktober 12th, 2011

Reacties

Onbekend
14 October 2011, 22:53
Joris, I wish to congratulate you on having the heart to bring this matter to everyone's attention as you have done. It would be very easy to keep it under the carpet (as most commercial interests would, I suspect) but you have been prepared to put it under a spotlight. Your own response as to PWC's capacity to act is reasonable and most of the comments from other people reflect the range of valid opinion on the subject. But on balance, the consensus seems to be that this vandalism-for-profit is reprehensible. Sadly, it exists because there are uninformed and insensitive folk who have been attracted by superficial aspects of the old-car movement and who are prepared to pay money to gain a slice of it; however degraded that slice may appear to the serious enthusiast.
Lees verder
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Onbekend
13 October 2011, 22:31
Oh dear ,
you are caught between a rock and a hard place.
For many years committees of many clubs have struggled with this predicament with absolutely no solution in sight;
Do you ban these vandals or do you try to protect the wallets of future generations by recording the bastardisation of automotive art?.
In My garage I have examples of Bentley Riley and Autovia all much admired by myself and others but each causes concerns of varying sizes.
The Autovia I could sell in Europe for silly money some 4 times more than attainable in England. One that was not really any better than mine sold at auction for £110,000 Euros! so do I sell in England for the buyer to capitalise by selling to Germany or the like or do I sell abroad?.
My Riley would be turned into a special, there are only 4 Silver Streaks known on the planet but some hoooigan would modify it in the name of sport!!!. Specials on the grid are much more profitable than originals spectating from the paddock they also command a much higher resale value . One club may appear to be strict in their rules but do the rules reflect their practise? after all they are a business requiring to return a surplus.
At present my cars are all safe in my garage but circumstances change, and unfortunately everyone has their price and their own choice as to the action they take with their possessions. In the end it comes down to conscience but do any dealers possess one?
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Onbekend
13 October 2011, 19:45
Dear all, While people who do this are the lower life forms of our hobby and we are upset seeing history destroyed, these people can easily subvert being disallowed advertising by just parting the car first. We all must find a way to stop the slaughter and it is a bigger problem than what this site can solve. I do not agree that denying advertising endorses other ads, and feel that we have to start fighting these acts when we can, where we can, and that this site should step up to the problem. Financially the original cars will always bring more than the specials and if we shun specials that would not be all bad, since I have seen bitsa Bentleys made from very nice acars throughout my life. It has to be stopped, how? is the issue. Passing it off to car clubs is no solution.
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Onbekend
13 October 2011, 19:28
Dear Sirs, I think this community has to stand up to those that wilfully destroy history. I do not agree that by disallowing certain ads that you are endorsing other ads. Having said this it would easily be subverted by the seller simply dismantling the car first. Distruction of history and art is an ugly thing, but where is there an easy solution.
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Onbekend
13 October 2011, 15:33
No words for this rather than: This advertisement makes me feel sad and irritating ....
I never would buy from people like that !
Regards,

Peter
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Onbekend
13 October 2011, 15:17
At last this knotty issue gets aired.
You say that "In our view the ad sections reflect what is on the market,"

Take a stand on this - even fleabay refuses to advertise certain items.
It can be done.

Editor: correct, and in fact we do refuse more ads than you would think. But for different reasons than this one. By publishing this advert + the commotion, a next guy will think twice before making public his behaviour at these pages.
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Onbekend
13 October 2011, 15:12
There is nothing new about rebodying coach built motor cars - it was done in period.

I am with Robin Batchelor. If rebodying a pre-war motor car vexes you, simply buy it and preserve it. :-)
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Onbekend
13 October 2011, 15:07
Bearing in mind the number of specials that appear at race meetings, that have provenance and are approved by the various clubs, it would seem impossible to go down the route of stopping new ones from appearing. Just off the top of my head, I can think of specials from AC, Alvis, Bentley, Delage, Jaguar, MG and Riley that I have seen at meets at Silverstone.
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Onbekend
13 October 2011, 13:00
Dear all, don't kill the messenger.
I like Phil Cordery's suggestion.
Let the car clubs take stand in either allowing "specials" or ban these cars from club events.
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Onbekend
13 October 2011, 12:30
It's nice to see this discussion which was longtime overdue. I remember having seen several similar sales ads here, of Riley saloon coachworks or even a Talbot Lago etc.
One of the funny effects of this "vandalism" is that there are nowadays far more Riley racing cars than ever left the factory. Even more funny are the American LaFrances, of which there were only two cars manufactured at their period. Compare this to the quantity of ALFs which you have seen on veteran events and smile.
I think it is far too late to blame their owners for vandalism. Looking at these events one would get the impression, that in prewar period there were mostly racing cars on the roads. Perhaps we should forget the whole discussion about authenticity and concentrate more on the fun. And it is definitely fun to race an ALF, even if it never existed.
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Onbekend
13 October 2011, 12:07
Saw the picture, guessed the content of your article, felt sad and then wondered about the fate of the LG45 Lagonda saloon sold in the April H&H sale.

Tom
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Onbekend
13 October 2011, 11:51
How about separating on the site the Private advertisers for parts from the professionals? No private individual with a love of classic cars would ever, in my view, do such a thing to a Derby Bentley. And those who cut down saloons into tourers because they fetch more are Philistines too.
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Onbekend
13 October 2011, 11:14
Simple solution available here, which doesn't involve Pre War Car, just boycott this dealers wares? I certainly wouldn't buy a 2BA screw off such a person no matter how desperately I needed it. These people need slapping down hard where it hurts, in their wallets.
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Onbekend
13 October 2011, 09:06
I'm sorry but whilst I understand the PWC predicament I do not agree. To me, heritage is everything. Yes, I understand this would place you in the rather invidious position of having to determine whether a car offered for parts is a reasonable restoration/ conservation proposition or not, but I'd 'take that on', if I were you. This web site is now enormously influential- powerful, even- in the old car movement, and your readers will save at least some of the cars in question. You could start a section here called 'cars in crisis' with the precise object of saving cars like this Bentley- and discrediting the vandals.

Dear Ralph, by giving this attention to the issue we think we cover your suggestions allready in part. Furthermore you are welcome to do an editorial on this issue on a more or less regular basis. Use the 'Tell a Story' link at the homepage.
the Editor
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Onbekend
13 October 2011, 08:32
Very Sad but all too common, but is this genuine , or some sort of scam, items for sale for Lagonda Buggatti & Bentley, all rare sought after items apparently correctly valued. The Bentley drivers club & W.O Clubs should bar these Hybrid cars from membership, then what would they be worth ? The parts on offer are extremelly scarce, The petrol tank sender for instance is in great demand I know of at least 5 people looking for such an item, the vendor seems to know which has the highest value & makes me after a lifetime in the restoration buisness very suspicious. You have a problem with acceptance of these ads , & if banned the sellers would simply strip the cars & show incomplete parts only, so we would never know that a perfectly good car had been re cycled.
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Onbekend
13 October 2011, 08:05
Thank you for giving this issue such prominance. Aside from sentiment and the preservation of history aspects of the approach being taken we are allowed to use our old cars on the roads because they comply with the requirements that were current when they were built.
If there were too many specials built in modern times, carrying the identities of older cars but little else, that could undermine our ability to resist the application of modern legislation to historic vehicles.
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Onbekend
13 October 2011, 07:36
Sir..a most excellent response to our concerns! I am pleased to note that our dismay at good cars being broken is not something you enjoy but fully appreciate your reasons on why you carry the advertisements for such happenings. I am impressed at such a measured thoughtful and appropriate reply. Thank you.
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Robert Vierbergen
13 October 2011, 07:24
For some no brains an old car is just that, an old car. Mr. Lochtenstein is like a lot of dealers just looking for a profit. Two years ago PWC advertised a Minerva from a well known Belgian Dealer, that was typicaly not a Minerva. I wrote you an allert, nothing happened. The poor guy that bought it, later got an article here about his car that turned out to be build on half a tractor chassis. Sometimes, even at sites driven by passion, the bigger advertisers are allowed things that are very questionable. It's a business. Still I love your site and I am a daily visitor, buyer, collector.
Have a nice day
Robert Vierbergen

Dear Mr. Vierbergen,

Your accusation sounds most interesting but is not true. We most certainly do not allow 'bigger' dealers to do things that we would not allow to other users. Sorry if one of your e-mails was missed, this is not our tradition.

regards, Joris Bergsma
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Onbekend
13 October 2011, 07:04
Would the discussion have been the same if it was a Mk6 or even a R Bentley??
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Onbekend
13 October 2011, 06:54
There is a simple solution to this kind of thing, refuse the ad and direct the vendor to Ebay, which is the spiritual home of the tasteless, uninformed and vulgar people who will buy the eventual confection thinking they have bought a vintage car, whereas we all know they have merely bought an overpriced pastiche.

Genuinely derelict cars which will never be a viable case for restoration are obviously quite a different matter. Much as it might be portrayed as such, it's not a crime to take a stand, or hold a moral viewpoint and this excellent site should take a lead in this.
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Onbekend
13 October 2011, 06:52
With grief in my heart I am reading advertisements of this kind and I am glad for discussion to this topic. It is not concerning only Bentley, but also American La France and the other cars.
I think that our mission is the preservation of culture heritage, the love to the old cars and pleasure from work which was excellent done. If I destroyed such car, I would never have good feeling……
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Onbekend
13 October 2011, 06:16
Thank you Joris for your wise personal touch.
'The pen is mightier than the sword.'

Perhaps one of your readers will save the whole car?

Meanwhile, keep up the good work!

Robin.
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Onbekend
13 October 2011, 05:34
In reading the ad I notice that the seller is not even able to copy the lettering from the body maker's plate correctly. It makes you wonder what the finished car is going to look like.
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Onbekend
13 October 2011, 04:42
I don't know- I suppose that a bodey by
'trump and maberley' might not be worth that much!!

Sad! Sad! Sad!

Tony.
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